Henry Sapoznik is a well known figure in klezmer/Yiddish music circles. He's one of the original klemzer "revivalists" and still one of the primary movers and shakers on the scene.
I wrote a profile of Sapoznik for this week's Winnipeg Jewish Post and News, as a preview for his lecture in Winnipeg on May 20. Unfortunately, the Jewish Post has only
the most rudimentary website and the article is not online. So instead, I'm posting the interview I did with Sapoznik here.
Suffice to say Sapoznik is an accomplished fellow. He was a member of Kapelye, one of the first 'modern' klezmer bands. He founded KlezKamp and
Living Traditions, which together are possibly the most important institution in klezmer music. He's written books, created
an award winning series for NPR about Yiddish Radio, produced countless reissues of vintage klezmer, Yiddish and American roots music, and is currently working on a national banjo museum in North Carolina. For more background, you can visit
his page at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where he is currently an artist in residence, or read this other,
very thorough interview by Mark Rubin.
EG: Have you been to Winnipeg before?
HS: I played at the Winnipeg Folk Festival in 1981.
EG: So It’s been a while.
HS: It’s been a while.
EG: You’re going to speaking about the role of women in Yiddish popular culture. Why this topic?
HS: This is one of the subjects that I offered to the programmers and they liked this one. It might be unusual because it deals with three different aspects of how Jewish women are represented in Yiddish popular culture. I could have done a dozen other themes but I think this one appealed to them.
EG: Could you give us a little preview of what you’re going to say?
HS: I take three archetypes that were very popular during the heyday of Yiddish popular culture. I take the Yiddishe Mame, I talk about the Yente, and I talk about women cantors, khazentes. Each one of them are explained through period recordings about what these images meant in the Jewish community, how relevant they were, how popular they were, or how long lived, and by listening to original recordings - some of the recordings go back 100 years - people get a real sense of what this meant. With cantors in the 1920s, why would a woman become a cantor, there were no synagogues that would let them be a cantor. So this was a phenomenon that existed on records, on radio, on vaudeville, and in old hotels. We know that there are a lot of women who are cantors today, but this was unrelated to that. So it lets you see where we are today as a community and look at this history and see how it developed.
EG: Originally you were an American folk musician, not a klezmer musician. How and why did you start playing klezmer?
Well, I was in a yeshiva as a kid, I had an orthodox upbringing, but to get into Jewish music meant having to be directed there. In this case, it was a banjo player with whom I was living and studying in North Carolina, who was puzzled that all of the young people who were coming from the North, coming down South to study with him were all Jews. And he naturally assumed that if they were coming to study with him, Jews must not have had their own music. And that got me thinking about that.
EG: That was Tommy Jarrell?
HS: That was in fact was Tommy Jarrell. It was also Fred Cockerham, but Fred didn’t ask me the question. It’s hard to imagine – I wonder what they would think, if these hillbillies, these non-Jews who barely ever met a Jew, realized how important their lives were to starting a Yiddish music renewal. It’s very unusual.
EG: Today klezmer and Yiddish music have taken off. But what was it like when you started Kapelye in 1979? Did people catch on right away or were they apathetic?
HS: Most of the work and the interest in this in the early days were from people in the folk music scene rather than the Jewish community, so other people who liked traditional music, if they liked bluegrass, or if they like Irish, or if they liked Balkan music, they got what it is was we were trying to do. They understood, even though they never heard this stuff before, they appreciated it. The other thing that happened at that time was the rise of the world music movement, and that started in Europe. I had already been touring there with my old-time music group, the Delaware Water Gap, that I been playing with since '72, so I sort of saw where the world folk music interest was going, and it was going less to folky stuff from the sixties, delta blues and bluegrass and stuff, and was becoming more global, and the klezmer thing fit. It was just tricky finding people to play with. I mean, there weren’t a lot of people. Andy Statman was playing, and the Klezmorim were playing out in California, but that’s it as far as the young guys.
EG: Since that time klezmer seems to have done well. Yiddish on the other hand, is still facing an uphill battle. Does that discourage you at all?
HS: I guess my feeling is, the resources are eminently there. I mean Hebrew, 100 years ago, talk about a language facing an uphill battle. And that was trying to revive a language that had been not a daily language for thousands of years. Here we’re talking about cultural continuity within living memory. What’s so hard about that? The resources are there. The Jewish community, all of the federations and stuff, they have the resources. If they don’t put them - if the money that were put towards making Holocaust memorials were instead applied towards cultural continuity, you wouldn’t be asking me that question.
EG: What do you think the differences are in trying to promote Yiddish in a smaller Jewish community like Winnipeg or Madison, as opposed to a place like New York?
HS: Well it’s a mixure. To a certain extent you bring stuff to the community. You bring the resources. After 25 years of running KlezKamp it’s pretty clear now who those people are in the world who carry this with them, as it represents the best and the brightest people working within Yiddish culture and literature and visual arts and music and linguistics and folklore, in dance, in history. The scholarship is there. There’s an incredible covering of people who are interpreting through the prism of Yiddish culture and it’s high-end stuff. The fact that it doesn’t turn up on the radar screen of mainstream Jewish organizations says more about the bankrupt goals of mainstream Judaism in the field of cultural continuity and Jewish identity. There has been a sea change in Jewish studies programs. Twenty to thirty years ago when it first started it was very Hebrew centered, Israel centered, forward thinking approach to Jewish identity. After 25 years it is now clear that trying to create a monolithic education, a monolithic cultural identity, it’s a useless prototype. It’s abundantly clear that we function in a multi-cultural universe, and trying to say well, Israel, we’ll all speak Hebrew, it’s all one culture - it’s an outmoded approach to Jewish identity. I think what’s happening here now is we’re seeing a new approach to understanding ourselves as Jews by acknowledging the incredible diversity, and the within-reach diversity, of Yiddish culture and the power and the attraction of it to generate itself, to will itself back into existence without the interest or support of mainstream Judaism.
EG: Unlike a lot of other klezmer musicians whose work has focused on pushing the music in new directions, your work has been largely about the archival aspect of the enterprise. What draws you to that side of things?
HS: I have always liked original period music. I just like it. I like old-time music, I like ragtime, I like early show tunes, I just like that sound. I will always play music that sounds like it came from a time and a place. And in a way that gives me a great sense of well being. People who don’t listen carefully to the music think that people who play from within the repertoire are not changing anything. I’m not playing the music anywhere near the way I first heard it. You can’t be a musician, you can’t be a creative person and not want to be true to yourself, put yourself into the process, but you don’t put yourself between the music and the people for whom you’re playing. I play my music from within the music, so I will always go back to the original sound. It’s what Walter Benjamin talked about in “Art in the age of Mechanical Reproduction.” He talked about this thing called the aura, which is only present in original works of art, that mass production of art cheapens the communication between the creative thing and the audience. I learned so much of what I know of this music from listening to 78s, from listening to the sound created by the people who grew up doing this stuff. And in every 78 there’s a message - there’s a message to us in each one of these records and they still remain to be discovered, we’re still understanding the wealth of stuff in these old records. These are our teachers, that’s our old country. So if people don’t reference these primary sources, then what they’re reproducing is a secondary, a removed version of this. Duke Ellington said you have to know the rules before you can break them. If people are immersed in a primary musical understanding, and then go and make changes from within the music – well that’s how music functions. But to superimpose change on the music in an inorganic, or an ahistorical way, it’s a novelty. It has no resonance. These are the kind of things that will disappear. They have to.
EG: Besides teaching in Madison and organizing Klezkamp are there any other projects that you’re undertaking at the moment?
HS: The other project is seemingly unrelated. I help run a not-for-profit organization in North Carolina called Piedmont Folk Legacies, and we run an annual festival dedicated to a pioneering recording artists who lived there, his name was Charlie Poole, one of the architects of bluegrass. We are building a national banjo museum in the town of PIedmont, North Carolina . It’s the important and unusual and unique. It’s a museum that talks about American history and musical identity. It’s very, very exciting and meaningful. So, not much Jewish in it, except that Jews played the banjo. That must be the connection.
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